What Happens When You Decide to Give Your Business a Name No One Can Pronounce with Catharine Redden

Inside this episode I talk with Catharine Redden from Zjoosh Your Socials about the unique name of her business and membership, plus we dive deep into marketing talk.

You'll hear us talk about organic social media, why paid advertising isn't the enemy, what the number one most effective marketing tactic is and more.

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Find more about Catharine on her website:
www.zjooshyoursocials.com.au
Join her Facebook group here

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Transcript

Bianca: Welcome to the new School of Marketing podcast. I'm Bianca Mackenzie, and today we're talking about what happens when you decide to give your business a name no one can pronounce. With Catharine Redden. Catharine and her brothers took over an existing business when they were 1210 and seven. What they didn't realise at that time was that it was potentially illegal. Spoiler alert, no one went to jail. Catharine now runs a marketing business that helps small business owners handle their marketing every now and again. She even has an idea that makes them money the old fashioned way, legally. Welcome to the show, Catharine.

Catharine: Oh, Bianca, thanks for having me.

Bianca: You're so welcome. I'm going to have to dive into this right away. Tell me more about your illegal business.

Catharine: When my granddad. So I grew up on a farm in South Australia, and we lived next door to my grandparents. And when he died, we inherited his house cow. And he had a little, what we would know as a side hustle where he would sell the milk to people in the town. So I grew up in a town of about 50 people, and he would sell it to the school teachers and actually even the shop owner and, you know, the bus drivers and whatever. So we inherited the cow and my brothers and I took over that little business so the boys wouldn't milk the cow. I tried, but she kicked the buckets of. That was never going to work. And my job was to, like, decant it into these, you know, those two liter glass port flagons. I don't know if they still sell them. Yeah, yeah. So you would decant it into that. And dad made this thing for my bike where I could kind of put them in my. On my bike. And before school, it was my job to sort of deliver the milk and to, like, the bottles. And I think mum probably washed the bottles. Like, in retrospect, you think you do everything yourself, but mom will probably wash the bottles. My job was also to separate. We sold cream as well, so we'll use. You'll have to google these people, but, like, it's an old fashioned machine to separate the cream from the milk. And mum would always say she couldn't tell if I was late for school because the faster you wind the handle, the thicker the cream gets. So if I was late for school, I'd be winding it really fast and the cream would be almost like butter. So that's what my brothers and I did for a long time. And the reason it's illegal is because you can't sell unpasteurised, unhomogenised milk.

Bianca: No, I know. It's a shame, though, because honestly, nothing better than milk straight from a cow. Right.

Catharine: I live in Brisbane at the moment and there's a company up here that do. Actually, there's a couple that do unhomogenised milk that has the cream on the top. And I love it because it reminds me of that kind of brings back those memories of those good memories of childhood.

Bianca: Yeah, I remember milking a cow. I didn't grow up on a farm. Yeah, I didn't grow up on a farm, but I spent a lot of time on farms then around horses, but also around cows and. Yeah, I remember the place where I spent a lot of time. They milked everything by hand still. I think they only had about, like 50 or so cows. Not like, not a whole lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. On his, like, tiny little stool. And you had to, like, sit there and like. Yeah, it was. It was kind of crazy. I loved being around that. We actually, we made some farm friends around here and some dairy farm friends, so I can't actually wait to have some proper milk again when we visit them next time. But I love that story. I think that's great. And that's what a good way as a child to. Yeah. To learn about business and about all the bits and pieces that go into it, like, you know, illegal or not. But I think that's correct.

Catharine: And I don't even think. I didn't even really realise it was a business. Like, not until I. Not until kind of decades later when I started my own, did I think, oh, we didn't get pocket money. We got. And, you know, like, the people would just come in. We didn't have keys to our house. Like, literally, we went away on one family holiday. And I remember my parents nearly got divorced because they couldn't find the keys to. So people would just come in the back door and put money in the fridge and we didn't have pocket money. And I'm not. I'm actually not. I'm not sad about that. It's just I didn't quite realise that was a business. But when I think about what my job was and what the boys, you know, like, we all. We all knew what we were doing and we just did it and it didn't feel like work. It was kind of fun. Like I, yeah, I really enjoyed my little morning rounds.

Bianca: I can totally imagine. And here you are. Now you have a business. Well, like, you know, now you actually purposely pay tax and. Yeah, intentionally and it's legal. So tell me a little bit about your current business.

Catharine: Should we stop this question? I run a marketing business. I guess I'm a cop. I guess I'm a copywriter. And I run a marketing business that helps small business with their organic marketing. So you do the paid stuff very well, but I kind of do help people with the stuff that comes before that. So my biggest selling service is I write social media captions and emails for people. I'm very strong on email, do a bit of social media management and marketing strategy, and I also have a membership for women who run small businesses who want to really make time to do their own marketing. So you know what it's like when you run a business, it can be quite isolating and we can sometimes, and get overwhelmed with the business and family and life and all of that kind of stuff that we don't make the time to do our marketing. So I started a membership where there's, you know, particular times in the week where we all get together online and do our marketing in Somalance. It's kind of cool.

Bianca: I love it. Now let's talk about the name that nobody can pronounce. And then you can also tell me about your membership because I really love the name of your membership. So, yeah, tell us about the names and how you came up with them.

Catharine: So I don't know how the name of my marketing business is called Juj, as in give your hair a juj, your socials. And I don't know, I can't remember how I came up with that name. I really, it really was one of those times where I'd just been kicked out of. I was leading a women's networking group and had a disagreement with the owner of that and stopped running that. And I, but I had discovered the power of Facebook groups and I thought, oh, that wasn't too hard to build that group. Maybe I should do that for my copywriting business. And I don't know where, I actually don't know where the name came from. If I had a client that said to me, I'm going to call my business your socials, I would plead with them not to because nobody can spell Zjoosh. I actually found out after I've registered the name and I'm going through a trademark process. There's a really big clothing store in Australia to call Zjoosh, which actually won't affect my trademark, but what it means is when people google it, the clothing store comes up. It's sort of. But, but I've had that brand now for four or five years. It's got beautiful branding. I really like it. People know it as Georges. I'm not going to change it because people will find me. Yes. And the name of the marketing membership is much easier and more straightforward. It's called Peach Club. And the reason it's called Peach Club is because there's a quote by Dita Von Teese and she says, you can be the ripest, juiciest peach in the world and someone's always going to hate peaches. And when I read that quote, you know, I think when I first, it probably even was before I started a business, but I'd gone through a lot of my life thinking that I wasn't good enough and really getting bogged down in that feeling of not being enough. And really, I kind of took the teenage angst of worrying about what everybody thought about me way into my twenties and thirties. And so I was probably in my forties when I heard or read that quote. And it just resonated with me so very much that I've called the membership Peach Club because it's about, I feel like women, like, we really worry a lot that we're not good enough and we strive so hard to be better and the best, and we try and, you know, we compete with ourselves and others all the time that it's when you kind of. It's when I stood back a bit and thought, well, this is who I am as a person and this is what my business is like, and it's not going to be for everyone. And that's okay. There's nothing I can do about that. And it was a very freeing, it was a very freeing thing to read that quote. I love Dita Von Teese as well. And so I love how unapologetically, I mean, she's got a marketing and media Persona, too, but she really does embody that. So. Yeah, so it's called peach Club.

Bianca: I love it. And I, I, I think if you relate that to marketing as well, I think a lot of us, and I'm pretty sure that putting out a really wild guess here, but I reckon 99% of women have struggled or are struggling with not the not good enough feeling, feelings of failure. And when we run a business, I think we let that stop us from doing marketing as well. Yeah, it stops us from showing up because, you know, and that's, you know, social media is great, but at the same time, we see so many. I kind of feel like that all the time. I'm called these young, fresh faces and I'm like, oh, man, I can't be bothered.

Catharine: I want to tell you, like, how I really, when I started my marketing business, I knew. I kind of knew that there's a lot of power in LinkedIn that people sometimes overlooked. And LinkedIn's. We were talking about the algorithm before we came on air, but LinkedIn and how it doesn't matter, but the LinkedIn algorithm is a lot more favourable to organic marketing than other platforms. And also LinkedIn is a platform where people expect you to promote. I was so scared of advertising on LinkedIn because my best, I didn't want. My best friend is a very successful lawyer. She was an equity partner at 30, like, in this big law firm, and she's very successful. And for some reason, I thought that she would judge me for starting this little ****** business that I haven't got a university degree for. And that stopped me. And she has never been anything but supportive of me. But that thought of her stopped me from posting. And then I thought about that data von Tys quote, and I just think, well, if my marketing's not for her, it's not for her, you know, and she actually doesn't give a ****. I've just wanted. By doing that.

Bianca: Yeah, I think it led to stop us in so many ways. So I love that you've called it pitch club. I also. I actually like that you've called it juicy socials because it stands out. Like. Like it's. It's memorable. It's something that, like, yeah, it's not. Like, it's not boring. It's like. And I think that was why. Or one of the reasons I reckon, that you built that online community up so fast and so well is partly because of the name, because it was different, and obviously partly, or a lot of it, also because you're just really good at building community.

Catharine: Thank you. I liked the word juj, too, because what I really believe in, and when, you know, there's the Australian tax definition of small business, which I think is less than ten people, I actually don't know what it is. But let's just hypothetically say the small business Australian tax office think it's less than ten employees turning over $5 million a year. Whereas my clients in George and in Peach Club tend to be really small. You know, one woman shows they might be working part time in their business and part time in a paid job. You know, I believe that when you're at that stage in your business, the best person to do your social media is, is you. And so part of the Zjoosh thing is like, you're already, you already know enough about your business. You actually know the most about your business, you know the most about your clients. And even if you don't think you are good at marketing, you're the best person to be doing it because it really just needs a little juj, you know?

Bianca: Yes.

Catharine: Yeah. And I know, I know that people don't like marketing. There's a lot of research that says small business hate two things, book work and marketing. And I know that people don't like doing it, but I think in the beginning it's really important to just give it a go. Whatever feels right for your business, give it a go, because you are best placed to do it yourself at the start.

Bianca: I agree. Yep, 100% agree. Well, let's dive in a little bit more into marketing. So we've talked about how us women let our insecurities and our fear of not being good enough and all of that hold us back. But let's also talk about marketing. What are some of the common marketing challenges you've seen with small business owners and particularly women, apart from not feeling good enough and, you know, not wanting to do their marketing?

Catharine: I think it's consistency. I don't really want to always talk about Peach Club, but I do think it's consistency and making the time and perhaps not understanding that, or not wanting it to take a long time, but it really does. The evidence says if you're running a business and you're doing everything yourself about, and no one's going to like this answer, but about half your time should be spent on marketing to be effect, to be effective. And so if you're already running a business and you're spending 20 or 30 or 40 hours a week doing the actual thing that makes you money, the thought of spending ten or 20 hours on marketing doesn't appeal to any. Doesn't appeal to me, doesn't appeal to anyone. And so I think a big challenge is making time and then doing it. And then the challenge that comes with that is when you put up a post or you write an email or you go to a networking event or whatever marketing task you do, you often don't get that immediate gratification of a sale. And so then I think, I don't know how men think, but I know then that what women think is, I'm not doing it right. I'm not good enough. This will never work. I need a lot of money. What am I doing? And that kind of spirals into a, what can, it did, it does did for me. It can spiral into, I don't know what I'm doing. Like, can you imagine being a marketer, running a marketing business and thinking your marketing's not working? Like, it's not great. It's not great for your self esteem or any of that. So I think, I think the challenges kind of double down on each other. It's the fact that it does take time. And then when you do it, not being able to see that immediate results, it's kind of like a really hope, hope situation, which when you're running a small business, is a really hard place to be in.

Bianca: I can totally see what you're saying. It's marketing. Yes. It needs to build on each other. It's like compounding. And people do notice, people do see, but people might not be ready right now to purchase. And I think, yeah, if you keep going, and I guess the other issue, and this is what I see as well, is like, even if you're doing the marketing and you're not seeing the results, sometimes it's because you don't know how to read the results.

Catharine: Yeah, absolutely and absolutely. So I have one KPI that I suggest all my clients look at in marketing. And that's your bottom line because. Because you can't tell. So.

Bianca: Right.

Catharine: Most of my sales, if you will, most people sign up for Peach Club or contact me about copywriting through emails that I send out. That's where, that's like the, I guess the final, that's where the sale is often made is through an email. But what's behind that are social media posts and me showing up in my facebook group and me going to face to face networking meetings and me updating my Google profile and me finally publishing my website.

Bianca: Hooray.

Catharine: And. And all of that, you know? So what's behind that person who's read that email is not just the email. It's like a whole lot of other stuff. Yeah, I find, and it's not the be all and end all, but I find Google Analytics really good for just giving me an overall picture of what's happening. How do you do it?

Bianca: Bit of everything. I mostly look at Facebook data because, well, Facebook advertising data because that's what's telling me. But I also, look at my landing page visits, my conversions from those landing page visits. Conversions, like list growth versus conversions. Yeah, there's a whole lot of things. Like, a whole lot of things. But I think if you bring it back to traditional marketing, old school kind of stuff, it's the whole thing of having a shop front. Someone walking past, you know, like 50 different times, they see it, they notice it, they look at it. They might be curious, they might be interested. And then one day you've, like, changed your window display and something's like, really calling to them and they come in and they buy something. Like, I think they need to see you in lots of different, it's what they call touch points. Like, they might see, like, you know, five different Facebook posts. Then you post something in a group, then you send that email, and then that email is kind of the thing that finally gets them in. Does that make sense?

Catharine: Yeah. Yeah. Because people are. I could talk just for hours and hours about email, but when people read an email, they're in a frame of mind to take in information. It's totally different to doom scrolling. Yes.

Bianca: You know, I do.

Catharine: And I do. If you're not using paid advertising, then to hope that social media is a sales vehicle, I think it's folly. I see my social media as merchandising as what, you know, as a digital shop front. I don't. I don't hope or expect people to buy from me just from seeing an Instagram post or even a Facebook post or whatever it is.

Bianca: Yeah, I do.

Catharine: I see that is my digital shop front. And like, I think before you, I don't know if you know this. I'm just plucking this figure out. But for instance, before digital marketing became a theme, I think was it 13 to 30 touch points somebody needed? Now it's like, can be up to 300. Like, it's changed a lot.

Bianca: It has changed a lot.

Catharine: I mean, and it's a. There are controversial stats anyway, but I think the, the message to take home from that is old school marketing. You needed to see something dozens of times, probably before you bought. And this is for an average person. Like, all of our buying behaviours are different, but for an average person. But now, because our brainstorm, you know, are used to doom scrolling and used to a lot of information at the same time that that's gone up a lot more. And actually, one thing I do want to mention while we're talking about all of this is word of mouth is still so prevalent and important. And I think it's something that we forget that word of mouth. And by word of mouth, I kind of mean your reputation as well, is so important.

Bianca: Yes, I 100% agree. And I think organic social media is a great way to establish that reputation, to uphold that reputation, to sort of build that authority, that connection. So, like you said, you're like, you're merchandising. You're really. It's nothing. Just buy this, buy this, buy this. It's like, this is who I am. I create this, I do this. This is how I help people. And using those examples, rather than saying, buy from me, buy from me, buy from me, they need to have that connection with you and really have that trust that what you're offering them is going to help them in their particular situation. And I do agree. Word of mouth is so super strong. That's why a lot of groups thrive on the referrals, people asking, hey, I'm struggling with this. Do you know anyone like. And, yeah, it's so much more. You're so much more likely to get work from that or business from that then. Yeah. Than you are from literally just going up to some random person in the street going, hey, buy my stuff. That's like, that's sometimes how creepy on, like, social media is as well. It's so creepy.

Catharine: And sometimes you get the buy my stuff stuff on Facebook, and you're like, why am I being targeted for Jim Bro athletic wear?

Bianca: Yep, you'll probably get targeted now.

Catharine: Probably. And I do want to just talk about word of mouth just for a wee bit longer because I love data, and I think it was 2020. Nelson did a survey of about 200,000 people. So during the pandemic, but kind of before the pandemic had really settled in.

Bianca: Yep.

Catharine: And 200,000 people across 52 countries. And they found that it's, you know, north of 90% of people at that time were relying on friends and family and acquaintance recommendations before they made a purchase. And so after that study, Google didn't like that very much. They did their own Aquila revenge study, and they found. So they found that of that 90% who were relying on word of mouth. So I asked my neighbour, where should I get my hair cut? And she said, go to Sally Snips. Well, I immediately google Sally Snips to see what she's like. And so that's why I think it's important to realise that, yes, don't just hear that word of mouth is important. Also hear that you. That your digital presence needs to look like a real, functioning, trustworthy business, because word of mouth is still incredibly important. But kind of layered on top of that is now that we are used to googling, checking Google reviews, looking at Facebook pages, like, it's important to have that digital shop front set up. But I. But I kind of hope that what that means is people can understand that you don't have to be posting daily to get for your social media to be effective.

Bianca: Yeah, I love that you're saying that because, yes, I google everything and I.

Catharine: Also just, we could talk for hours and hours, but also, don't be scared of bad reviews. Like, you're getting a bad review as a business owner is a rite of passage. And when you're answering that review, never answer it from the point of view of being defensive. When you get a one star review on Google, always think about the next potential client reading that response. Because as a consumer, like, if I'm going to a new restaurant, I understand that some people have a bad day and a bad experience. A one star review is not going to put me off, but a defensive business owner arguing with the review, that's going to put me off.

Bianca: Yep. Yep. I love that. I do like when people actually respond and kind of go, sorry, this happened. I often think that the bad reviews, especially if the good reviews outweigh the bad ones. I often think the bad reviews are just some cranky people who have nothing better to do at that time.

Catharine: And I'm like, don't be a one star reviewer. My personal philosophy is it's five stars or it's nothing. Because I sort of think, what the hell is a four star review? And I think if it's a one star review, something really bad's happened and you probably need to call the police instead of writing a review.

Bianca: Yeah, fair enough.

Catharine: So I'm a five star reviewer or nothing, because I. That's my personal opinion, is I just. I don't understand two, three and four star reviews. I don't. I don't get them at all. If it's one star, something criminal has probably happened.

Bianca: Yeah.

Catharine: So called the cops instead of leaving a review. And I. Yeah, I used to be a mad review of Bianca, but I don't do it as much as I used to. I just. I don't do it as much as I used to.

Bianca: I feel like not enough people actually ask for reviews, but they are. So they can be so important, especially for, like, cafes and restaurants and things like that. I think we. Maybe we just need to ask for reviews a bit more.

Catharine: How would you, if you were advising a hospitality client, how would you advise them to ask for reviews?

Bianca: Well, I saw a really cool one recently where they have, you know, like, when you get those, I think they're like acrylic kind of table numbers or whatever they are. I saw them and it's like a circle.

Catharine: Yeah.

Bianca: Explain it now. And it literally has engraved on it, I think, like their name and literally an Asker and a QR code. Like, it's on the table. Like, if you enjoyed, like, spending time with, whatever, eating here, please leave us a review. And, like, it's like a QR code. So you like sitting at your table? It's stuck to the table, like glued to the table. At your table. I think those are really, really good. And I think sometimes you need to incentivise people for giving a review. So whether that is, you know, give us a review and go in the draw for a weekly or monthly dine on us for free or something like that, I don't know. I think if you really want the reviews, incentivise people to complete the reviews. Yeah. And keep them coming back as well.

Catharine: I got a tricky question for you now.

Bianca: Yeah.

Catharine: I know that you're meant to be interviewing me, so I've got a client who's a psychologist and they're not allowed to ask for a review.

Bianca: How would you.

Catharine: And I'm madly trying to think of ways that she can be reviewed, and I'm just not sure. Do you have any advice for her?

Bianca: No, they're not allowed to. Under regulations, they are not allowed to have any testimonials.

Catharine: But I do see, when I did a bit of googling, I see that psychologists and doctors and healthcare professionals do have Google reviews. So do they just hope that their patients and clients leave them?

Bianca: Technically, they're not allowed to, but I think. I don't know if there's a way to disable it on your Google, my business profile, but on there at all, it is. It is illegal. Yes, but I think there might not be a way to disable it on Google, my business profile. But yes, they are not allowed to. Kind of wouldn't even bother because, yes, it is. Again, they can have their licenses revoked, I think.

Catharine: Right, well, I'll be going back with. Contact your lawyer. Yes, take some legal advice. Not from Facebook. Please stop doing that, people. Contact your lawyer.

Bianca: It's definitely not allowed. I want to talk a bit more about your online community because I think I found it when we still lived in the same area. Yeah. And yes, you've built, like, a really strong online community with you know a name that's hard to pronounce.

Catharine: Why?

Bianca: And you've kind of touched on it a little bit with peach cuff. Why is community so important? And why and how is it helping business owners?

Catharine: That is a very raised question.

Bianca: Sorry.

Catharine: Immunity is important because humans are social creatures. I'm a self professed introvert. I really enjoy my own company. I don't feel lonely ever. I get a little bit tired when I'm in big groups. But I think it's a kind of really genetic thing where social pictures and I see Facebook groups as my mind sometimes boggles me, but I see it as like a village green, right? I watch a lot of midsummer murders and they're always at the village green having a village fair. So if you imagine a time before television and before the Internet, people got information from each other, you know, like we went to the market and we walked down to the village green and we hung out with each other during cricket matches and church and. And those kind of things. And so I think humans need that kind of social interaction. I think we crave that kind of social interaction even as introverts. And I see Facebook groups as a. Okay, so I saw a big problem with Facebook groups. Like, I just want to say that I've been members of them and they're nasty. And you and I were members of a very big one. That's very nasty and exactly what you mean. Yes. Dm me for gossip and I didn't like that at all. I'm quite a sensitive soul and also quite a defensive soul. So I work on that. But. So Facebook really wasn't for me in the initial stages of me joining. Because listeners, I don't know if you know this, but Facebook love arguing because it keeps your eyes stuck on Facebook. Because Facebook know that controversy creates people scrolling, scrolling, scrolling and arguing, arguing, arguing. So Facebook doesn't care about that as much as they say they do. They don't. So it kind of creates this space where all people complain about our, you know, dog poo and whatever, loud bangs. But. But I kind of realised that if you could have a group that had some rules and a sense of community, that. That it could be a place where you could share information. And I actually realised this before I started my business. So before I started zjoosh your socials, my husband and I, my ex husband and I Airbnb'd a couple of our guest rooms. I went through a stage of being out of work and then Jeff was made redundant and it was slightly terrifying. And Airbnb had just started in Melbourne. So we rented out two of our spare rooms and Airbnb, and did really well to start with. And then I noticed a real drop off in our bookings and how much we could charge. And I sort of realised that it was because my list didn't know what algorithms were, but sort of realised it was because my listing wasn't being promoted in the Airbnb fee. And Instagram was kind of a new thing. And Facebook had been around for a while and I. I realised there was a way for me to get without having my own website. There was a way for me to promote my Airbnb listings through Instagram and Facebook. And then I started looking for ways to do that better. And I could not find a Facebook group for Airbnb posts, specifically marketing. So I started one, and that grew to about 50,000 people in a couple of years. Like, that grew exponentially fast. And that's how my current business started, because I just decided to learn as much as I could about marketing using Instagram. And Facebook didn't even know what a paid ad was. Bianca, by the way, back then, no idea. So I just decided to do that. And I guess I have a little bit of a natural leadership authority kind of stuff. And I had really strict rules for how people interacted, and I would kick people out for being passive aggressive. I kind of have this rule in every Facebook group I run, which is the only person who is snarky or swears is me. Everybody else has to be polite and not passive aggressive and all of that stuff. Um, because I think that Facebook can quickly turn into really ugly place.

Bianca: Yes.

Catharine: And I don't want that for my community. And I know that if I control that and I police that, I don't mind if I get the pushback from other people. Like, I'm happy to. I'm happy to cop that if you like. And, yeah, just make it, you know, like it's a bit of a weasel word. And make it a safe place for people to hang out and ask questions. Yeah. And learn all that they can. And I do. I probably quote from people a bit too much, but I love Zig Ziglar. The America. He's no longer with us, but he was a salesman in America and he wrote a lot of books and I love his work. And Zig Ziglar says, you can have anything you want in life if you help enough people get what they want.

Bianca: Yep.

Catharine: And I really believe in that. If anyone asks a question in juju, I'll answer it. I don't believe in keeping stuff, you know, like if I know the answer or if I don't know the answer, I usually know someone in the group that will. I really believe in sharing that information. I don't believe in hoarding those kind of business secrets. Like, I. And perhaps that's why it grows as well, because I am. Yeah, yeah. I just believe in sharing whatever knowledge I've got. I'm happy for other people to have it.

Bianca: Yes. I love that. I think we have that same philosophy.

Catharine: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I do think that's not wanting to start a men versus women debate. I do think that's something that we're men and my group's not. Men can join, but it's mainly women. And I think it's because men have a different way to do business sometimes. Maybe we're getting controversial. Tell the other thing men. Men do really well that women could do better, and that is manifest. Men don't know this about themselves, I don't think. But men are the biggest manifestos on the planet. They manifest getting married, they manifest someone making their lunch, they manifest people bringing up their children, they manifest promotions, they manifest holidays. Cannot believe I'm going to talk about Donald Trump, but he manifested a presidency. I am the greatest.

Bianca: Yeah.

Catharine: He manifested a presidency. So if you're into manifesting, look at what men are doing. Just start doing that.

Bianca: Yep. They're doing it. They're doing it. They really do. I think there's a quote around that as well. You know, like, act as if you're like a, I don't know, middle aged white man.

Catharine: Act as if you're a moderately attractive white, middle aged man going on a bumble date or something.

Bianca: I read that, yes, there's a lot of things that we can learn from men, but there's also a lot of things that they could learn from us.

Catharine: Absolutely.

Bianca: So I want to chat a little bit about, because when you started your groups and now what have you seen change, like, the digital landscape? Like, what are things that are changing or that have changed? And how should business owners adapt?

Catharine: I think since COVID and I think we forget about this, Covid seems like in the dimmed out past, what I noticed is businesses that maybe hadn't caught up to the online revolution got online. I noticed that during COVID like, there was a lot of businesses without websites or Google Business profiles or LinkedIn profiles that kind of got on board. I've noticed. I actually think I noticed the same things. I'm nothing sure if a lot has changed. I think people are getting, people get wound up about the algorithm really easily. And look, I am aware that it is because the people I deal with, my clients typically are quite small, but I'm hearing what their problems are. So I may not kind of be aware of, like, how else it's changed. I think people just now, I do think we're on the brink of people really starting to limit their social media time. Yeah, I believe that, you know, doom scrolling is the new smoking. And do see people consciously talking about digital detoxes and using social media less. Now, whether that actually eventuates, Bianca, I don't know, you know, because I still spend way too much time on my phone.

Bianca: Yeah, mine kind of. I have one of those apps that tells you you had this much time online, no more.

Catharine: Spent 29 hours in the past day. But I kind of get the feeling, though, and perhaps it's within a particular demographic. So I would say if your demographic is upper middle class professional, I think, though, that group of people are going to spend less time online than they used to because I think we know I'm going to put myself in that demographic. We know that life is being lived outside our phone, and we probably know in the last 20 or ten to 20 years, we've spent a lot of time with our head down. And so I see that as a change that's coming in the future. I've never been much of a futurist. Like, I'm not. I'm never going to be Gary Vee promoting, saying that. I knew that Uber was going to be a thing that I missed out on. I'm never. I'm not much of a futurist. I guess I'm more pragmatic. Like, I listen to people tell me what their challenges are and I think about how we can overcome them.

Bianca: Yeah.

Catharine: Yeah. What do you think?

Bianca: I think that we need to. Nothing. Forget about traditional marketing methods that we shouldn't put all our eggs in the social baskets and even in the digital basket, I do think a digital presence is incredibly important. But to keep it on your own turf, and by that I mean having a website and email marketing, because you own that. And it's like what we were talking about before, the algorithms. Like, yes, people get upset about the algorithms and they act so entitled. Sorry, Bianca.

Catharine: This is what I say to people, right? Facebook make money from advertising. The reason Mark Zuckerberg has billions and billions of dollars is because small, medium and large businesses advertise. That's how he's richest. Right. And so you cannot expect, as a small business owner, not paying anything to get any, to get any kind of fairness when it comes to the algorithm. It's just not a thing. Their whole thing is set up to make money from advertising. So. Yeah, I absolutely agree with that.

Bianca: One more thing. Sorry, I can get up on a high horse about this. And good on him because you know what? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And this is why I don't like that people get so entitled when an algorithm change comes through. It's like, I can't promote my business because the algorithm has changed. I'm like, hang on, what are you in business for? For the fun of it to, you know, got nothing else to do. No, you're in business to make money. Yeah, we are in business to make money. So why would you criticise Zuckerberg? Yes. He's made millions and millions and billions of dollars. He is running a business, not a charity. We are not running a charity. We are running a business. So you want people to pay you, then? If you want to get the most out of social media, start paying to get the most out of social media. And look, you can still get really good results with organic. It is just getting, it is just harder to get seen and heard because it's busy, it's noisy out there. Anyway, sorry, that's me, or my husband, actually not.

Catharine: I'm really glad you raised that point because when I started advertising my Airbnb rooms on Instagram, I was really, and then paid became a thing. I was really anti that because I think there's kind of a lot of so called marketing gurus that tell people they don't need to use paid. And I fell into the trap of believing that. But, Bianca, I've changed my mind. And I now say I don't take on very many social media management clients. I just work with, you know, people that, and this sounds entitled, but people I choose because it is so labor intensive. Social media management.

Bianca: Yeah.

Catharine: And there's a lot of emotion tied up in it. Like, because it's expensive, it's, it's sometimes hard to predict results. But I now say to people, right, this is how it's going to work. We're going to do organic for six months, and at the end of that time, we are then going to do paid. If you want sales for your business, if you just, some people just want brand penetration or the digital shop front, that's fine. But if you're expecting a return on your investment with me, this is my long term plan for you. Six months organic, and then after that we go paid, baby, because you just won't get the traction anymore. Because you're right. You know, like, everybody wants to have a side hustle or has a side hustle. My nephew has a side hustle and he's like, sixteen and flips pool tables. Would you believe? He buys the run. He and his mates buy these rundown pool tables and refurbish them and sell them.

Bianca: That's amazing.

Catharine: It is amazing.

Bianca: But yes, everyone wants a slice of that social media pie. And look, you can, it's a hard slog, I, I always think. Because people like, oh, it's free. No, it's not. You either pay with your time or you pay with your money. And, and also you're leasing it.

Catharine: Like, I think I really want to. You, you made that point before about email and website and what you own. But when you post on social media, you only lease that space. You don't own it. And it is, you are always at the whim of the people who own the platform. And that's what you sign up for. Exactly. Don't get entitled about that. But you own your email list and you own your website. I'm going to give you a stat beyond, because I love stats. This is my new favorite stuff. 4 billion people every day open their emails. 2 billion look at Facebook. 500 million look at Instagram. So email, I think people, I don't know, you know, and then people say to me, I had this, she wasn't a client, actually. She was someone I know, it's called her an acquaintance. And she said, oh, but I hate getting emails. And I'm like, but, right, but you're not your ideal customer.

Bianca: Yes.

Catharine: Like 4 billion people as opposed to two.

Bianca: Yeah. And you have a lot more chance to be seen in someone's inbox than you have in Facebook and Instagram because the algorithm will only show your stuff for I don't know how long. It might pop up. Well, there you go. It might pop up in their feed, it might not. And this is why I really, really struggle with local businesses here in Tassie that run their business only on Facebook. And I find out about some really cool event they had three days after the fact because that's when Facebook shows it in my feed.

Catharine: Something like, there was a change, I don't know how long ago, but what happened is a lot of business pages stopped being shown because of. I don't know whether it was a privacy. Well, there was an update. Oh, Bianca, I have to tell you a story. So this woman that I know has business coaching, marketing coaching. And her mentor got her into a state because he said, I'm in Google income incognito and I can't find your Facebook page. And she, she was in a doom spiral about this. And I said to her, just tell me who's going into an incognito window to look up a decluttering service? Yeah, I can see it in a normal chrome window. We tested it. I said, so I'm. Who is. I said, I can understand that maybe there's a problem with your settings or whatever, but, like, it's actually not your biggest problem. No, it's actually, no, it's not. That's not why you're not getting views on your Facebook business page. And I just. Yeah, I think that's very lazy marketing advice. Yeah, I got that.

Bianca: You need traffic, and to get traffic, you need to drive traffic to whatever you're using, whether it is a website, whether it's a Facebook page. I prefer to be it to be a website. But you need traffic, and traffic needs to come from different sources. Whether you drive traffic through social media to your website or go to networking events or put, fly into people's mailboxes or use paid ads, there's all these different ways, different ones, something. Yes, you need traffic. So.

Catharine: Yeah, and the only stuff people look, people are not looking at house cleaning on incognito windows.

Bianca: No, no, no. Not at all. All right. Well, so we could talk about this for hours, and I know we can, but I think this is a good one to sort of segue into the last question. What is your advice to people starting out, especially in terms of marketing and community building?

Catharine: I was prepared for this question and my mind's gone blanken.

Bianca: I think we have answered a lot of it. You know that.

Catharine: I think to understand that. Here's my advice. Here's my advice for someone starting and marketing is to make the best possible thing that you can. So whether you're a product or a service, whatever you are, whatever you sell or provide, so you might be a charity, whatever you're doing, do it to the best of your ability without becoming a perfectionist, because we all know that gets us nowhere. Yeah, but do whatever you can to the best of your ability. And then when you get, because you will, everybody finds clients and customers and then really double down on how you serve them and give them an amazing experience. And that involves a lot of listening and a lot of humility, because sometimes, quite often when we start, particularly in a serve, actually in any kind of business, when you start selling something, you can get really attached to it. And sometimes it's very hard to hear feedback. It's really important to ask your clients and customers, people who buy from you, ask them how you could be better or different or whatever, and then use those stories of transformation in your marketing. Once you can show that your product or service has helped someone, because we buy stuff, because we want a problem solved, usually in business. And so then tell those stories of transformation in your marketing. Yes, that's what I would advise. And. And, oh, my God, too much advice and kind of block out all the noise about funnels and TikTok and whatever algorithms, like, block out that noise.

Bianca: Yeah, that can come later if you need to.

Catharine: That can come. Right. I need a funnel at the start. I don't even really know what a funnel is, to be honest.

Bianca: Well, I think everyone has funnels, whether they are intentional or not. Intentional. I think not. Like, literally, I started, I know what a funnel is.

Catharine: I just really don't like. But, no, but. So to get away from that, you know, whatever it is you sell, do it to the best of your ability. Gather some feedback from your clients, but really, like, really double and triple down on the experience that they're getting from you. Ask them if you can, and then ask them about the transformation. Like, how have you helped in their business or in their. I'm always thinking about how have you helped them?

Bianca: Yeah.

Catharine: You know, like, if you're a chiropractor, they probably can't, but what is a good example? If you're an accountant and you've done somebody's personal tax in an amazing way.

Bianca: Yeah.

Catharine: And then tell that story of transformation in your marketing. That would be my advice. And. Yeah, and shut out the noise and then just keep going. I know that sounds a little bit trite, but.

Bianca: No, I was going to say the.

Catharine: Same thing, because nobody does it perfectly. The only people who do perfect marketing are employees, and even then it's questionable.

Bianca: Yeah.

Catharine: You know, like, it's never going to be perfect. It's always going to be patchy. Sometimes you're going to accidentally post a cat picture to the wrong platform. It happens.

Bianca: It's fine.

Catharine: It happens all the time.

Bianca: Nobody's life is at risk when you do that.

Catharine: That's right. It's just marketing.

Bianca: Yes.

Catharine: Just a story.

Bianca: I love that. It's just marketing.

Catharine: It's just marketing.

Bianca: I think that's great. All right, let's wrap up. I always ask two questions of my guests. The first one, what are you curious.

Catharine: About right now I'm curious about focus. I'm really. I was an excellent student, Bianca, that won't shock you. I got straight as, never got in trouble. I was an excellent student at school, and then I went to university and kind of the bottom dropped out of that. And I want to get back to being able to focus really intently on what I'm doing and, like, be productive. And so I'm really curious about how I make that happen in my life. Like, I'm really. I used to kind of beat myself. I probably beat myself up about it for 35 years, but recently I've just decided to get curious about it. So I'm making lists and I'm meditating and I'm listening to podcasts and doing a lot of reading because I really want to. Like, I have. This sounds a bit grandiose, but I have this deep seated belief, and then I'm really good at what I do, and then I can help a lot of people.

Bianca: Yes.

Catharine: But in order to do that, I need to focus more and procrastinate less. So that is what I'm curious about.

Bianca: I love that. And don't beat yourself up about it.

Catharine: Thank you.

Bianca: We. I have a little sort of mastermind group, Facebook group thing that I'm in. Like, there's a couple of us in there, and it's like, it's all free, but we have anti faf threads.

Catharine: So.

Bianca: Every day, someone posts in there going, anti faf thread, what are you getting done today? And that accountability kind of helps me. But I also was going to mention Ali Abdaal. I don't know if you've looked at any of his YouTube videos. Ali Abdaal. He's got a YouTube channel and he's got. He's recently written a book that's called Feel good productivity, how to do more of what matters to you. I've got it in my Kindle, so I just looked it up. But, yeah, he's pretty cool, so look that up as well. The next question. And you look, look, I'm not the queen of productivity. I have my ups and downs, and I think that comes with the female territory. We have our ups, we have our downs. Sometimes we're productive, sometimes we're nothing. The next question. If you had an extra $5,000 in your marketing budget, what would you spend it on?

Catharine: Advertising.

Bianca: Cool. You don't have to say that, but, yeah, I do.

Catharine: No, I just. Well, no, but I'm at a stage. Might as well be vulnerable. I'm at a stage in my business where my website's been published. It needs a bit of work. I've got my man friend, I sent him the link to the website and he very. He rang me up and he's like, catharine, there's a lot of latin words on it. Does that happen to be there?

Bianca: I said, lorum impsum.

Catharine: Yep. I said, no, that's just because the copywriter, aka me, hasn't quite got around to filling out.

Bianca: I love it, though. It's up. Done's better than perfect. That's not better than.

Catharine: If you want to see a done better than perfect, check out my website. Yeah. So that's all up and going. And the bits, the copywriting bits, I do myself. I've got my branding done, I do my own captions. I really love email marketing. I'm on top of that. So for me, what I'd have no knowledge of at all is paid advertising and for Peach Club, so I've only just launched it. I've got 13 beautiful foundation members. But, you know, me being me, I have big plans and I know that the next phase of that is paid advertising because we were talking about traffic. I can go to a networking meeting every day, I can post every day, I can write an email every day. It's not going to drive the numbers that I need to it. So that's what I would do. And I'm not just saying that, but that's because I've got others in my business. I'm lucky that I've got the branding sorted, the website sorted, I write my own emails, I write my own captions. I understand the benefit of belonging to a professional networking organisation. All of that's happening. And so the next phase for me is the paid universe.

Bianca: Yeah. Increase that traffic and it is, you know, it is one of the fastest ways of increasing traffic. I'm all about fast. I don't like to have to wait too long.

Catharine: I'm actually patient. I just, I just. In my business, I'm patient. I just know that that's the next. Because that's what I tell my clients. This is the next logical step.

Bianca: Yep. Yeah. Once you've got everything in place and.

Catharine: You'Ve got the five grand staircase on my daughter day, I'll be knocking on yours.

Bianca: I'm here. I'm always here. Awesome. Thank you so, so much. That is the end of this week's show. If you have any questions about marketing, building a community, head to zjooshyoursocials.com.au. I will put that into show notes too, because I know it might be tricky to find. Big, big thanks to you. Catharine, thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Catharine: My pleasure, my pleasure. Bianca, thank you so much for having me.

Bianca: You are.

Catharine: I always love our marketing chats and I can't wait to talk to you again.

Bianca: I know. I'm sure we'll have probably have another one because we have so much more to say.

Catharine: That'd be terrific. Anytime, anytime.

Bianca: And thanks to you for listening. If you like the show, don't forget to subscribe and leave a five star rating and review on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify or wherever you heard the podcast. Your review will help others find the show and learn more about the amazing world of online marketing. And don't forget to check out the show notes for this episode at newschoolofmarketing.com where you can learn more about Catharine. Check out useful links, download free resources and leave a comment about the show.