Ethics and etiquette for social media with Deborah Wallace

Ever thought about Public Relations in the social media arena?

No? Neither had I, so I was super excited to learn more about this when I met Deb Wallace at a local event.

I invited Deborah on the podcast to tell you (and me) more about PR in the online space and how important it really is for brands to incorporate some PR principles.

Tune in to learn about:
- the difference between PR and marketing
- why PR is important for your brand
- mistakes you're making and opportunities you're missing
- ethics and etiquette of social media

Lear more about Deborah Wallace here:
https://www.onlinepr.au/
https://www.facebook.com/onlinepr.au
https://www.instagram.com/online_pr_tas/

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Transcript

[00:02] Bianca: Welcome to the New School of Marketing podcast, the place for smart, simple strategies that will amplify your business results, sharing practical tips, insider knowledge and actionable advice. Because marketing is something that every business owner can do. Now, let's get started. Introducing your host, Bianca Mackenzie. Mum, lover of snow, sports, camping, horse riding and in demand launch strategist and Facebook advertising knowledge bank.

[00:32] Bianca: Welcome to the New School of Marketing podcast. I'm Bianca Mackenzie and today I'm talking about ethics and etiquette for social media with Deborah Wallace. Deborah is online PR, the public relations agency specializing in digital online space PR. PR for the digital space includes image capturing, content creation, ethics and more. She has tertiary qualifications in photography, public relations, business and physical sciences. And she's a local. Deb is passionate about businesses supporting businesses. The success of your business community really reflects on others'support for one another, which is really good. I love that. Deb, welcome to the podcast. Yay. Thank you.

[01:15] Deborah: Thank you, Bianca. Thank you for having me. How exciting.

[01:18] Bianca: You're most welcome. And I love one. I love that you're local and I love that you're taking social media not in a different direction, but you're highlighting one of the important things about social media that I know a lot of us forget about. So let's dive in. And I know that PR is like another thing. So to a lot of people, PR, public relations, it's a mouthful. PR can be a little bit confusing to people, especially when you mention marketing in the same sentence. And you know what, as a marketer, I used to get quite confused about marketing PR, especially at the start, I'm like, Aren't they like the same? They're not. But what exactly is PR and how is it different or in a way, the same from marketing?

[02:15] Deborah: Yes. So a few questions in there. So you're right. So when I say I'm in PR, I do get a lot of blank looks. So that's my cue. It's like, that's my little flag to explain what it is. And I think there's a lot of people out there that don't know what PR is or what the difference is between the two. So, firstly, PR is short for, as you mentioned, for public relations. So it's the basic form. In its basic form, I should say, it's the relationship with your public. Get it? Public public relations. Yeah. It's about the practice of managing the spread of information between a business or an individual and the public. So it involves building and maintaining positive relationships with various stakeholders, let's say your customers, investors, employees, the media and that kind of thing. The primary goal of PR is to create a favorable image of your business in the eyes of the public. So this can be achieved through various activities, let's say media relations, event planning, community outreach and drum roll, wait for it, social media and more. So where marketing is mainly focused on selling a product, for example, PR is more focused on your overall brand and reputation management. So marketing and PR are like the yin and the yang, if you've heard of that. They work beautifully together. One focuses on a product and the other focuses on the overall brand, if that all makes sense.

[04:04] Bianca: It totally does, and I really love it. And I have to admit that, like I said, when I was in the early stages of going into marketing, I was always a little bit confused about what PR was and what the role was. And I love that you just said that social media is PR. And when I got out of Uni, there was no social media. So I didn't think about it that way. It was more the media relations. And I always thought it was for bigger organizations with bigger budgets that spoke to the media and online, not online, on TV and things like that.

[04:44] Deborah: It's interesting. Yeah, and it's interesting that you say that, because when I did Uni the first time, I actually, as an elective, picked up PR for social media. And that was a while ago and that was very different too. That was mainly focusing on government entities and also non for profits. So it's the biggest scale of things like teaching your volunteers for the not for profits how to act and behave online and give them a toolkit and give them the resources to get out there on social media. So, yeah, it's interesting you say that about the university.

[05:22] Bianca: It has changed a lot. So you mentioned a little bit already. So in the marketing and the PR space, we talk a lot about branding and how important it is. So, yeah, as a marketer, we would talk with branding, we would be more concerned about sales and conversions. But from a PR perspective, why is it so important?

[05:46] Deborah: Yes. So from my perspective, PR perspective, when I think of branding, I think of branding as being the number one asset, like your primary asset, which means in reality, that managing that should be your number one priority. Like your biggest, biggest priority. Does that make sense?

[06:06] Bianca: Yes, totally.

[06:09] Deborah: Because your brand management, your branding is easier to keep up and favorable in the eyes of your customers or your stakeholders than what it would be if you were to gain it back, if you lost it, for example, or if it was tarnished somehow. So what we want to do is if it's up and when it's up, to monitor that and maintain that, like the best way we can, but the most simplest and authentic way we can, because it's just so hard to get that trust back.

[06:41] Bianca: I 100% agree. And I do want to throw in here, branding is not a logo.

[06:49] Deborah: That's right. Exactly right.

[06:52] Bianca: Isn't there a saying like, your brand is what others say about you when you're not in the room?

[06:57] Deborah: Yeah. And to me, it's reputation management. It's like, how does your reputation I can't even say that word now. How does that look? Again, it's public relations. How do you look to your public? As your public, I should say.

[07:16] Bianca: Yeah, totally. Really? And like you said, if you get that tarnished, it is so much harder to rebuild. You see it with businesses that are then sold, and if the brand reputation, the business hasn't had a good reputation with online, especially in the social media space, it can go so much further. It's not just like your local fish and chip shop. Well, no, actually it would go further. I was going to say they wouldn't need to worry about it too much, but they would because TripAdvisor and things go a long way, too. Yeah.

[07:56] Deborah: And it's all online. That's right. All online digital space and that's it. Public relations covers that whole lot.

[08:02] Bianca: It does. Crazy.

[08:05] Deborah: Quite scary.

[08:06] Bianca: It is very exciting. But it's kind of like high school politics, isn't it? You just have to be the nice person and not be branded as the bully.

[08:21] Deborah: And that's what it's all about. Yeah. If you stop the podcast now, if you got out that, out of that, that's all you need.

[08:28] Bianca: Don't be the high school bully.

[08:30] Deborah: Exactly right.

[08:32] Bianca: So in terms of social media, what is something that you often see people doing wrong? And I have it in quotation marks, or maybe they're not taking full advantage of it, especially from a PR perspective.

[08:48] Deborah: Yes, this is an interesting one. So what I see and I feel, and I need to remind people that social media, it is social. It's social, get it? It's social media. So it's two way communication. So what I mean by that, for example, is, let's have a look at television or radio. So you're sending out a message, you're broadcasting a message, but you're only broadcasting that one way, whereas social media, you're still broadcasting that message or sending out that message, but in real time, you can get a response or a reaction or feedback. So we need to be mindful of that. So it's social. So we need to socialize, just socialize in our community and not put up that brick wall and ignore our audience, if that makes sense. Because, again, that all comes down to public relations and having that favorable image that it's not all about you, it's not always all about you, and it's about communicating with your audience and your followers or whatever that may be to you, your stakeholders.

[09:57] Bianca: I love that. That is definitely a bit of, I guess not necessarily wrong, because, yes, marketing is taught that way. The old school marketing is very much one way broadcasting. But yeah, not taking full advantage of having it as a two way communication. I'm literally sitting here going, oh, yeah, I'm learning something.

[10:19] Deborah: Yeah.

[10:21] Bianca: Having that two way communication is super important and I do, in a way, talk about that and teach that a little bit, but we still throw in the broadcast. I kind of say, like 80% sort of conversational and 20% promotional. You still have to ask for the sale every so often, in my opinion. So let's look at Instagram, for example. Let's say that I follow you on Instagram, and two days later, I unfollow you. Talk me through what that means for a brand. If it just means anything.

[11:03] Deborah: Yes. Did you just hear or did you just feel my brick wall just come up then? So some time ago, Bianca, I'm not even sure how long ago was and even if it's still running, there is agencies or people out there, organizations out there, and it's a trend that in order to gain more followers, you just follow anyone. You wait for them to follow you back, and then in a few days later, a few days time, you unfollow them. So what that looks like is, to me, and from a public relations perspective, is they may not be the best ambassadors for your business. In fact, what it does look like, it has a real negative tone to it. It suggests that their business or them, their business is more important than your business, or they're more important than you. I think there's a lot more psychology behind it, but that's the core of it. And people go, oh, what do you mean by that? And how do I check that? The easiest way that I check is I'll go onto their Instagram profile. If they have heaps of followers but only a few following and even zero following or even one following, that's a huge red flag to me. So I won't even follow them just in principle, because, as you know, I'm an advocate for businesses supporting each other and for many other reasons, and I think what they're doing is just not good PR. I get they probably do have their reasons for that, but it was a trend, and I think some people were still using that trend or teaching that trend or whatever it is, but it just doesn't look good.

[13:00] Bianca: Yeah, because they think that the more followers we have, the better we look. But yeah, if it's only one way street, then I don't know, unless they post really cool things that I just want to look at and I don't really want to engage with.

[13:15] Deborah: Yeah. And again, it looks like it's a one form communication then, doesn't it? Like, it's television or radio. But again, it's not. It's social. It's on social media. But I'd like to think that they have their reasons, but they're taught that, like, it was a trend. So I don't think to me, it doesn't work anymore.

[13:39] Bianca: Yeah. I don't let it mean anything to me personally. If someone unfollows me, it's like, okay, well, you might not be in the right space, or you might not be the right person. I don't like saying that, but I might not be for you right now. That doesn't mean anything to me. But I do think that brands, especially when I don't know when you're the face of the brand, for starters, it needs to be more personal. But when it's a bigger brand, I don't care as much.

[14:18] Deborah: Yeah, and I get that, I do. And we see that we see some influencers or some businesses out there that do change directions and that it doesn't fit with us anymore. We're not comfortable getting their posts or looking at their content anymore. And that's okay to unfollow them, but to do it deliberately to gain only get those followers up and then a few days later unfollow you.

[14:47] Bianca: You might.

[14:47] Deborah: Want to think that people, if anyone's doing that, about how that looks.

[14:52] Bianca: Yeah, not a good look. So sometimes businesses and brands outsource the posting on social medias to like an agency or a staff member. I'm always curious about this. How do you make sure that they follow good PR protocol?

[15:14] Deborah: That's an interesting question. So I could answer that coming from a few different ways, but it comes down to your social media policy. So have or develop, for an example, an etiquette toolkit for your staff. And if you have outsourced to an agency, check their policy because that agency may not actually be a great fit for you and your ethics overall. Brand and I know that it may be hard to find social media agencies, but they are a lot more coming through and you don't know what their credentials are, you don't know what their ethics are. So it's probably good to chat in that. But one of the trends recently is to have manage your social media in house or bring it back in house, if that makes sense. So when I say etiquette toolkit banker, I mean write up a list of do's and don'ts that you expect in order to maintain or lift your brand's reputation. So that could be your in house social media policy or if you don't have one, again, it's just about the basics that you want and expect someone that manages your reputation. And when you really, really think about this, that you have given your reputation management over to someone else, you really do want to develop it. And I just want people to sit with that for a second because that's huge. Especially if you're, like me, tend to be a little bit OCD. As I mentioned before, it's easier to keep your reputation high than to win it back if it's damaged or tarnished by an agency or a staff member. I just want people to really feel that and resonate that, that you have handed over your brand's reputation.

[17:13] Bianca: You definitely need something in place do's and don'ts. One of the ways that I think it could be done as well, and I've worked in this capacity with some businesses, is that you have a content calendar or like content created by an agency or by someone else, but the posting is, in a way, still done in house. So it's like it goes through a filter, it goes through an approval process. Obviously it doesn't work for hot topics that you have to respond to straight away, but yeah, I think having a little bit of a gatekeeper to say, I think that might help in that way.

[18:05] Deborah: Yeah, and it's interesting that you said that about the content because it didn't even occur to me that some businesses will just pay for content. And all the content that I create for my clients are shaped around public relations principles. There's a gentleman from the 1930s called Arthur Page, and he invented the I think it's about seven, five or seven principles called the Arthur Page principles. And they're shaped on that, and I've just basically modified them for this day and age for our digital space. And I think with that in mind, if you get an overall perspective, an overall public relations perspective, with your content that you are purchasing in or outsourcing, bringing back in, that's all got to help. And it's the Holistic approach, if that makes sense.

[18:59] Bianca: Yeah, totally does. I love it. Well, I'd obviously just have my marketing hat on and most people that will hire social media agencies or like someone who does social media, often they come from either a content conversational perspective or a marketing perspective, but not often not a PR perspective. So I think putting it through that filter of what does this look like from a PR perspective, I think that is really another step to take, and I think that's really a good one to add to that lens as well.

[19:36] Deborah: To filter it through. Arthur Page basically summarizing his principles. He emphasized the importance of honesty, integrity, customer focus, long term thinking, employee engagement, and maintaining a positive attitude in the practice of public relations, or in my case, using all that. But the practice of public relations for the digital media, the social media, I love that.

[20:04] Bianca: I really love that. And I don't know, for me that comes down partly to values as well, but that's the kind of person I am. But I guess if you're building a brand that's not necessarily attached to a person, what are your brand values? And then putting that PR and those principles on top of that, I think that's really important because a brand is not necessarily a person. So, yeah, the way I look at I often do it with my own business in mind, but I'm a person. I can't afford to be the high school bully. I'm not that kind of person anyway. But for a business, it's really important to have that written down, especially when you're going to outsource.

[20:58] Deborah: Yeah, exactly.

[20:59] Bianca: All of this. Okay, so we just looked at etiquette, but there's also ethics. And this is why I really want to talk to you as well, because when we first met, you spoke about this and I was really intrigued by it. So how are the two different and how can a business apply good ethics?

[21:16] Deborah: Yes, so we just looked at how that nasty recent trend following each other and unfollowing them a few days later looked and developing a toolkit. So, yes, ethics is things from how to deal with complaints quickly, for example, a reminder to be professional, to have fun and be nice, as you mentioned before, to remind ourselves to just plunge and simply be nice. Having deja vu moment. Bianca it's about being authentic. As I said before, one of the biggest trends post pandemic in social media is about other than bringing social media back in house, it's about being authentic. So people want to see the people behind their favorite brand or their product as human. They want to see that they have real problems too. Like, we were all in the same boat, none of us got out unscathed through that whole ordeal. This is again why PR is really good for your social media plans. Because behind the scenes, for example, is just one way to bring that authenticity out. There's way more, there's a lot more. But in the PR world, as I said before, I follow those PR principles from the 1930s that are modified for the social media space. And it's interesting because I do start to see a lot more big brands now, especially the clothing brands. They are starting to follow those PR trends and be a lot more authentic. And instead of filming, for example, a new product range of clothing with professional stunning models on the runway, they'll put their iPhones up on a tripod and just try on the clothes and film. And it's really good to see. Also is great to reply your comments, your social media comments, things like that. Blog comments is a like for like. So what I mean by that is, for example, it goes back to the two way communication for the social media space. So if someone replies to one of your posts, for example, Bianca, with an emoji like a love heart, reply back with a love heart or something similar like a thank you or if someone comments, or something similar. So if someone comments, also reply with the comment. And if you can even continue with that comment and continue on with the conversation or just like a like for like or even if a thank you. Because again, as I said, social media is social. It's two way communication. People want to see that there is a heartbeat, there is a human behind their brand. They don't want it to be a robot human or even AI, but that's probably a whole different podcast for you. It's the two way communication, it's your brand awareness and it's just super, super important. But answering your question, social media ethics is about the online behavior where Etiquette is, for example, your courtesy and respectful guidelines. So both are just as important for maintaining positive ethics online. But my biggest advice that I have around this is to be authentic and have fun, but still stay within your brand's limitations and your guidelines. Like you don't want to be that authentic and that have fun, that you've just gone off on a tangent and you're not even related and you're just silly because that just brings your brand down.

[25:14] Bianca: There's authentic and there's authentic.

[25:16] Deborah: Exactly. So still stay within your brand's limitations, but at the same time, it's important that you can show a heartbeat.

[25:26] Bianca: That's the right way of and look.

[25:27] Deborah: If that's the right way of saying.

[25:28] Bianca: It, I know, I totally agree. And look, if part of your brand is that you're doing silly stuff, I can think of a brand but it's part of the brand. If it's part of the brand. But yes, just stay on brand whatever half of the time that means. But I think the authentic and being authentic doesn't always mean that you need to show the polished side of things or like, you know, it's all rainbows and sunshine. No, you can be more authentic and be more vulnerable. I think that it needs to be still related to what your business is and stands for. There's no point in I can win to my friends about the super hard day I've had with my kids at home when it's not a work day. But in my business, I can, in a way, be vulnerable about that and share how tricky it sometimes is to manage a business and have little children. But nobody needs to know the ins and outs of that super hard day. So, yeah, I think you need to have a little bit of a filter on it because yeah, I don't want to be that's that business mom. That just whinges.

[27:00] Deborah: Yeah, it's funny you say that, because there is some marketers out there that's another story for another day. But it's interesting. Yes, I have seen that going back to the clothing brand. I can't even think of the name of the clothing brand. But don't get me wrong, it's our inherent nature that we love looking at nice things, don't we? We love looking at beautiful things and especially when it comes to clothes, right? And when you've got a beautiful, gorgeous model wearing these clothes and walking up and down the catwalk, you'd like, you daydream and you do whatever goes on in our heads. That's psychology behind it. As I said, I can't remember what name of that brand that's recently gone towards filming a reel, but real time with just one of their staff members with those clothes on, hiding behind the curtains, and all of a sudden they've got the clothes on, turning into a reel with some nice music and it's a genuine person. It's not a professional paid model, it's just a staff member or someone from the community. It's what I call average body size person. And it just resonates with me more because it's like, oh yeah, that's what that garment looks like on that size body. Oh yeah, that could work with me or actually probably won't work with me now that I've seen that, but my brain just 100 miles an hour when I look at that. I'm like, that just looks so much better for so many different reasons.

[28:39] Bianca: Public relations and whatever. Yeah, it is more in a way, genuine. I guess we can talk about user generated content in that way as well, but the other topic that we talk about, the Etiquette guidelines, would come in really handy for user generated content as well. It's great to ask in a way like influencers or users to supply you with, I don't know, video material, reels material, all of that. But yeah, obviously you still have the opportunity to not publish it because you're not giving them access to your account. But it would be really handy to in a way, give them some pointers as well, the type of content that you want them to create so that it does fall within your brand guidelines.

[29:35] Deborah: Exactly, yeah, and I think we could probably talk about that for a really long time because I have seen some really bad examples and some really good examples of hiring an influencer to help with your raise your brand or your marketing product or whatever the case was. And I have seen some epic failures and I've cringed and these influencers have hundreds and thousands of followers on Instagram. I'm like, oh my God, did you just do that? And it's like if I was that company who paid them that money, I'd be asking them to remove that reel because that reel is on that influencer's account.

[30:13] Bianca: Yeah.

[30:14] Deborah: And they've just tagged when you tagged you. Yeah. I'm like, oh, that's just nasty. But I've seen some that work, but I see a lot more of it happening. But I think you're right, have that foundation in place first, have your toolkit first, have a chat about what you expect. But at the same time you still want their influence and their personality because that's what makes them so successful.

[30:41] Bianca: Yes.

[30:42] Deborah: And that kind of thing. But it's about meeting partway there, I think, so it's interesting, isn't it?

[30:49] Bianca: I hadn't really thought about that beforehand, but yeah, it can go really wrong, can't it?

[30:54] Deborah: I've got some great examples but it's probably not suitable for this podcast but it's probably someone that we're all probably following too.

[31:04] Bianca: It's like, oh no, let's not name him Shame.

[31:08] Deborah: Exactly. And besides, I can't remember their first name anyway, off the top of my head.

[31:14] Bianca: Social media is great, but yeah, there needs to be some boundaries around it in terms of what you do and don't do, but don't let it like if you're listening, don't let it stop you. You can pre create content. And if you do an instagram live, it goes live straight away. But if you pre create your content, you can decide whether or not you're going to post it or not and just be really clear on your brand, who you are, what you stand for, what you will and won't do or say. And it makes it a lot easier. If you don't have any of that in place, then you can't really stick to any guidelines or rules. But yeah, if you have them.

[31:59] Deborah: Exactly. Makes things a lot easier and simpler and flows. Everything just flows.

[32:05] Bianca: It does. It really does. The same as being a person. If you know who you are, it's much easier. Awesome. Okay, well, let's do my standard end of episode questions. I always love to ask this, and I know I'm like throwing you a complete curveball, but what are you curious about right now?

[32:28] Deborah: Now, it's interesting you say this. Now, this is not even PR related or marketing related, but you just basically said it about know who you are. And it's interesting because this is story time. I start each day doing a little bit of personal development. And the thing that my little gold nugget for today was I don't have to know the exact 100% knowledge of the workings of something because I've got a science brain. I overanalyze things, and I have to know how things work. And it's interesting because this morning's personal development was like, you don't need to know. You don't need to ask. You need to just get out of your own way because it just works. And it's interesting because I had a phone call before you this morning, and it was a professional associate of mine who had a breakdown on some machinery. And I said, So what did you do? And he explained it to me. I'm like, okay, just pretend you get it, but you don't. And he goes, I hope when I get to his destination that nobody asks me how I've done it, because his response is, I don't know. Don't ask me. I don't know. It just works. There's a few choice words in with that, but that's what it was. It was I don't know. It just works. So that's what I'm curious right now is how do you get out of your own way and just allow things to just work? That's unusual answer to your question.

[34:12] Bianca: I love that. I kind of answer my children's questions like that sometimes. I don't know. It just does.

[34:20] Deborah: Yeah, that's hard for me. If you're OCD, that's hard for me. I don't know. It just works. Full stop, silence. Like, oh, that's uncomfortable.

[34:33] Bianca: It is uncomfortable. I want to know when I'm really interested in it, I want to know. But some things I'm not interested enough to figure out how it works. My husband's an engineer, and he'll be explaining something. Sometimes I'm like this, and I don't care as long. As it does what it needs to do. Don't tell me I don't really care, because I don't know all the brain spaces.

[34:58] Deborah: Yeah, you're filling up my important brain Sprint list right now. I should be focusing on something else. Exactly.

[35:06] Bianca: If it's about a sales funnel and all the components, and I need to know how that works, but I don't need to know how this machine thing or whatever he's come up with works. But I can imagine that science brain. You want to know how things work, but yes, exactly. Sometimes they just do.

[35:31] Deborah: It was lovely how he said that, too. I thought, that's it. Where's my pen? Where's my notebook? I've got to write that down because that's the second time I've heard that today. Get out of your own way because it just works.

[35:41] Bianca: It does. Yeah. I love it. Stick it on a sticky note and stick it on your computer.

[35:48] Deborah: Yes. On the fridge.

[35:50] Bianca: Stop going down the rabbit hole. It doesn't matter how it works. It works.

[35:55] Deborah: Oh, you've nailed it. You've nailed it. Stop going down the rabbit hole. That's exactly right.

[35:59] Bianca: We do that. I do that sometimes. The other one is, if you had an extra $5,000 in your marketing budget, what would you spend it on?

[36:10] Deborah: Yaha. Okay, so the PR person is focused on PR, but it's not too good on marketing, whereas you could say that on the other way. But I can't say that, of course, because I don't exactly know if the marketing person is fantastic with marketing, but may not be aware of the public relations perspective.

[36:32] Bianca: 100%.

[36:35] Deborah: If I had an extra $5,000 on my marketing budget, what I'd do is I'd spend a minimum of one fifth of that on giving that to you to get you to shape a marketing of a product, because I'm so focused on public relations and the overall brand reputation. Overall public relations perspective, it you forget that even though I am trained in marketing, too, that sometimes you can lose sight on one or the other. And although you have your marketing steps and your marketing campaign in place, but when things don't go as well as you'd hoped, you think, oh, hold on. Maybe I need to step out of my little island mentality in my space and actually ask for help and go and seek a coach's advice. Or go and see your advice, for example, and go, hey, Bianca, you know that $5,000 marketing budget I've got?

[37:46] Bianca: Yeah.

[37:46] Deborah: I'm actually going to give you some, and we're going to sit down, and we're going to come up with an actual marketing plan inside of a public relations plan and to focus on a particular product that I'm trying to market. And that's how we work so well together. Like the marketing inside of a public relations plan.

[38:09] Bianca: Yes, the marketing and PR side of things. And you know what? Sometimes for a marketer, it's actually good to work with another marketer as well. Because, you know, when you're just too close to your own thing, it kind of stands in my way sometimes. Yeah, like I'm too close to it. I need someone else's bird's eye view and thoughts on it.

[38:35] Deborah: It's tough for people like me. OCD. But it's tough to actually put my hand out and ask for help. Put my hand up, I should say, and ask for help. And it's interesting because you're right, you get sort of not narrow minded, but you get your fixed mindset to a way. And even though I do personal development and professional development all the time, having that coach or another person's perspective, or as you said, another marketer's perspective, just a fresh set of eyes just makes a big difference.

[39:10] Bianca: I think.

[39:10] Deborah: The rest of that money, the rest of that $5,000. So, yeah, a new plan with you and then the rest of it would go on Facebook marketing, Instagram marketing, social media marketing.

[39:23] Bianca: Yeah, I like it. Ads. Ads. Yeah, I like it. You don't have to say ads, but some people do like to spend their money on ads because it speeds things up a little bit. That's what I like about ads. It's not a silver bullet. It only works if everything else works. But it does speed things up, which I like speed.

[39:48] Deborah: And it's different for everyone from a public relations campaign, some people need a billboard or some people need flyers at the local tourist agency, or they need a radio campaign, or a television or magazine or newspaper. Whereas the target audience that I have and the target things I'm trying to target, my online course for example, is that my audience or the people who want to target are international people or big city business owners. B to B. I think you call it funneling.

[40:26] Bianca: Yeah.

[40:28] Deborah: So it is social media ads that I would funnel, that I would channel that into. So wouldn't need any marketing for anything else. Just purely for that.

[40:39] Bianca: Love it. If only we now had 5000 extra dollars in our marketing budget, that would be great.

[40:47] Deborah: Well, we have state grants as well. We do listeners for both our listeners.

[40:54] Bianca: Super lucky. Well, any tassie listeners? There is small business grants available. I'm pretty sure that other states have similar things. But yeah, for our Tassie.

[41:08] Deborah: I think the federal government website has the list of each state's grants that are available. But we are lucky in Tassie. And yes, round three, I think opened yesterday at 02:00, at 02:00 P.m. Or something. So very lucky.

[41:30] Bianca: Super awesome. So that's the end of this week's show. If you have questions about ethics and etiquette for social media, head to WW onlinepr. Au a really, really big thanks to you, Deborah, for being on the you.

[41:47] Deborah: Thank you. Thank you for having me, Bianca.

[41:49] Bianca: You're most welcome. And thanks to you for listening. If you like the show, don't forget to subscribe and leave a five star rating and review on itunes, Stitcher, Spotify or wherever you heard the podcast. Your review will help others find a show and learn more about the amazing world of online marketing. Don't forget to check out the show notes for this episode@newschoolofmarketing.com, where you can learn more about Deborah. Check out Useful Links, download free resources, and leave a comment about the show. Close.